This is the transcript of a conversation between the Chair of the Sleat Community Council and me, Ludwig Appeltans. I was a Community Councillor at that time.
I have invited the Chair for a conversation to discuss governance issues I had identified.
I had already tried to have a conversation with the Secretary. But had been unsuccessful in resolving the issues.
Please note that it is not against the law to covertly record conversations and use the transcripts. Especially if it is in the public interest. This clearly is in the public interest.
I tried everything I could to avoid having to use this transcript.
I apologise for the hurt that releasing this transcript causes. I feel I have no choice but to do so in the interest of our local democracy.
| In bold are the words of the Chair of the SCC. We are talking about the secretary of the SCC. (sec) The words not in bold are my own. |
| …….. |
| Chair |
| No, he talks to much. |
| Ludwig |
| Well, I’m looking for solutions, because I think Sec has a valuable contribution to make to the community. I’m just trying to look for solutions, then you know what I mean? And the situation manifests itself also in like in the last Community Council meeting. One of those, you know, because one of the other things I have is ADHD, I’m multitasking all the time so I turn my video off, and at the same time, I’m doing something else. And then I’m also watching listening all the time, but I’m also watching what’s going on and I was counting like, you know, not a minute exactly, but the minutes that people are speaking, [redacted], for instance, [redacted] doesn’t speak at all, and I couldn’t speak at last minute my laptop malfunctioned. |
| Chair |
| One of the issues with the Zoom meetings is I can’t kick sec under the table, to tell him to shut up. On the face of things when you see him sitting there you just give him nudges “shut up”. |
| Ludwig |
| Yeah, I mean, on a practical level, you know, I think that there are structures that are ways of holding these meetings that, there are tricks and tools that can be used to stop that from happening. One of the things is like have a regular go-arounds. So that everybody has a chance to speak, even if they don’t raise their hands. Because I remember when [redacted], … you know, …. remember, we were trying to get young people to join in and [redacted] stood up. [redacted] not going to stick around if [redacted] can’t… and [redacted] needs to be roped in… it’s also for long term view. It’s not a good idea if one person controls everything because you don’t have any, any succession going on then. If sec dies for what you know, God forbid. There’s nothing nobody else left to take over from the younger generation. |
| Chair |
| Well yeah, seems like he’s making himself indispensable. |
| Chair |
| In some ways, but nobody’s indispensable. If sec was to hopefully not die, say move away, whatever. |
| We just have to pick up the pieces really. |
| And one of the problems is, he has a lot written down but most of it’s in his head. he has almost photographic memory. |
| Ludwig |
| But that’s also a way to control this situation. And all the emails that also go through his email, personal email account, |
| Chair |
| everything that goes to Sleat Community Council email, he gets all that |
| Ludwig |
| And he replies from his own personal email not from… |
| Chair |
| sometimes it can be either |
| Ludwig |
| But if there is no record of it that is accessible to anyone, like for instance the people from (redacted) they emailed him they didn’t email the community council and that’s that’s like a power concentration in one person..and that is not helpful to the communtiy |
| Chair |
| yea yeah |
| Ludwig |
| And he likes that so he’s not going to change that. He likes to be in control. That’s the reason why I’m not getting invited for these conversations down there. … |
| Chair |
| Quite a few of the incomers come in and try and change the look. Sec is an example of one, but he’s not the only one. He’s probably the most vociferous one. |
| Ludwig |
| Yeah, and quite unpopular in his tactics. |
| Chair |
| He’s made several mistakes. I get about this STAG thing for instance you know. You’re going warning… you know the people. (redacted). And of course, if one of these xxxx options had come to fruition, it would’ve been a bit of a danger they may have had to lose their houses. So he’s going there to warn them in person and they think it is going to happen |
| .inaudible .. not going to happen… because it’s never ever going to happen. Why worry people about something that you know is not going to happen. |
| Ludwig |
| That’s the bad news. I think one of the tactics he uses is also fear. Bullying, bullying is about fear. And a lot of people that I’ve spoken to, you know, you know about this incident, with the taxi driver here that he used… you remember email that he sent to me? |
| Chair |
| Yes. |
| Ludwig |
| Because I wanted to find out what was going on here. So he asked a few people you know what is SEC, what does he do? You know, a few other people said, “Oh, he’s done the same to this and this and this person. And I spoke to those people about what he did, you know, confirming what he did, but they didn’t want to speak out because they’re scared of him. That’s bullying. |
| Chair |
| He was really into the community trust as well. inaudible.. and they’ve thrown him out, him and his wife, yeah. The Community Trust is full of people who come in here and (redacted) used to live here and Scottish and got a lot of local connections. But really the rest of them are comparatively recent incomers. |
| Ludwig |
| Yeah. People who’ve got time. |
| Chair |
| Yeah, maybe yeah. So that’s an age thing, most of them are retired. Yeah. |
| Chair |
| Right I’d better catch the shop before it shuts as well. But, I’ll speak to Sec. And uh, I’ll tell him that uh. I won’t, well actually do you want, should I mention your name? Maybe not. |
| Ludwig |
| Um, I don’t mind. I don’t mind as long as it’s in a… we’re all trying to work together… |
| Chair |
| …we’re all trying to improve |
| Ludwig |
| Yeah yeah, that’s what I want. I don’t want to rock the boat. But it also just needs to be democratic. |
| Chair |
| Yeah yeah, I think too, he monopolizes these meetings. Uh, and particularily I think particularily the zoom ones when you can’t kick his ankles under the table |
| Ludwig |
| Yeah but if you organize the meeting you can shut them up you can mute them but that’s a big thing to do, you know? Thats humiliating, you know? |
| Chair |
| Yeah yeah, of course it all goes through… his computer |
| Ludwig |
| Of course, he wants to be in control. But, you know, give it some thought, you know? [redacted] sure knows all sorts of… there other people have the same problems and there are meeting protocols that prevent that sort of stuff. And I think its time to give [redacted] some jobs if [redacted] wants. |
| Chair |
| well, because it’ll be whatever it is, anyway. But But Sec, he does wind people have the wrong way. Without even knowing he’s doing it. He’s quite good at that without without having a clue. A lot of time for Sec. The amount of work he puts into this community was just astonishing. He’s under (inaudible) now going across a… going to last weekend he was in Glasgow, carrying that community forward. And he’s fighting for this ferry. So he does support the community in many ways. A lot of people misunderstand this methods perhaps…. I don’t think he’d have been the right one to be the chairman of community council. Basically, Sec, he’s a difficult man to live without too, you know all the electronic side of things. He developed the website and the Facebook page and… |
| Chair |
| I don’t think… I think that’s all I had to say. It clears the air up for me. And when I pass the word around now and uh I won’t put anything in there that we haven’t already spoken about. In particular for Sec. If we can clear the air with him and get him to realize that there’s no dangers from this is there? In fact, it’s a, it’s a uh, a place I think the community should be proud of. |
| Ludwig |
| But I also need to make sure that while this is dangerous for the community, to have the local community against me be cause all sorts of things, people, bullies feel safe…. you know, that to cause issues … there has been sabotaged and attacked and locks have been broken, and that needs to change you know what I mean. And if somebody like xxxxxxx feels safe enough to threaten me, then that is an issue there, that needs to stop and to feel safe with that. Because if I don’t feel safe in that… then how can I trust the xxxxxxx forum… How do I, you know, how do I know that Sec is not pushing something that goes against my community? |
| Ludwig |
| I also,….I used to work with juvenile delinquents, take them out, you know, when they’re just before they’re eighteen, before they’re released back into the community…. I would take them out, for a week-long trip up in the mountains, in the hills. To help them feel safe with themselves in nature… confronting themselves you know and it works really well, you know?…. some good results. But I’ve learned to deal with bullies and the thing about bullies is that if you don’t stand up for yourself, then,… you end up being their xxxx if I can use that rough language. |
| Chair |
| Yeah that’s, that’s almost in the description of what a bully is, you know? You’ve got to stand up to them. |
| Ludwig |
| Yeah, you’ve got to stand up to them and you’ve also got to make sure that when you stand up to them that you know you can win, ’cause otherwise, you achieve the opposite result. I waited a year before I stood up and just slowly finding a way around in that and I know that I’ve got enough. Spoke to a lot of people and Sec is not very popular and there’s a lot of people that |
| Chair |
| I absolutely agree and that in that. He’s done the wrong thing in many ways and with many people. There’s one…. you see in the emails that I’ve sent, copied to xxxxxxx, that I’ve put in them that uh “whatever you do, don’t go ahead and do something in the name of the Community Council without having discussed it within the Community Council. And he has, perhaps actually, between you and I, that’s… put in there xxxxx to read and digest because he’s done that a few times. |
| Ludwig |
| Mm, I’m aware of that, yeah |
| Chair |
| But I’m thinking that… I hope I can tame Sec a little bit… |
| Ludwig |
| Yeah, but I do want to work with Sec, you know? I want, I want him to be on our side, you know, the community side. And growing food locally isn’t going to harm anyone, you know. I’m not there to make Sec’s life difficult. |
| Chair |
| Okay well, I’ve gotta get to it…. clear a lot in my mind and properly… I don’t see issues with anybody in the community council, apart from sec, really. And he’s got a lot of, he’s quite a strong-willed character himself. But he needs to realize that uh, that he’s not getting through here.. and uh, quite the opposite……. |